Salutare tuturor,

desi nu detin un acvariu marin, imi face placere sa citesc postarile acestui forum, pentru a fi pregatit pentru momentul in care voi contacta microbul "saramurilor" . in acest moment detin un acvariu de aproximativ 400l ciclide americane ...din cele pasnice .
Dar sa revenim...recent am dat peste un articol pe net despre skimmere si folosirea lor, dar nu in mod continuu. Din pacate articolul este in engleza si nu am avut timp sa-l traduc. Daca credeti ca e un subiect de discutat, as dori sa aflu de la colegii mai experimentati o parere despre aceasta abordare (ex. skimmerele puternice pot elimina amino acizii sau alte elemente esentiale pentru corali si pesti... sau pornite doar noaptea) si in ce conditii se aplica...banuiesc ca o incarcare biologica redusa, etc..... de vazut paragrafele : Are skimmers even necessary? ; A skimmerless approach.

https://www.reefs.com/2015/02/17/protein-skimmers-remove-nitrate/

Do protein skimmers remove nitrate?
Posted on February 17, 2015 by Jeremy Gosnell
p-36007-fish-supplyNitrates can be the bane of existence for many reef aquarists. They aren’t nearly as toxic as nitrite or ammonia and unless they exist in very high amounts (excess of 50-100 ppm) they don’t have a tremendous effect on fish. The problem is that nitrate is a growth fuel for algae, including zooanthellae within coral tissue. I often tell aquarists to think of zooanthellae like a case of ring worm in human beings. When kept in check, this particular ring worm provides you with energy and nourishment. Under proper conditions, your body simply ignores its presence, enjoying all the extra energy. If some environmental or biological condition causes it to grow too much, your immune system kicks in, fighting off the ring worm and robbing you of all that excess sustenance. This is how zooanthellae exists within coral tissue. Under proper conditions it provides nourishment, allowing the natural colors of a coral to shine through. When nitrate is present, the zooanthellae takes off and the coral’s biological processes perceive it as a threat. The coral expels the zooanthellae and usually perishes shortly after from starvation. If we seek to keep corals of any species with dramatic coloration, it’s best to have no nitrate within the water, or barely measurable amounts.

There are a lot of ways to remove nitrate, and nitrate filtration is something within the hobby that has become very popular these days. Everything from refugiums to bio-pellets is aimed at removing nitrate. Often, I hear reef keepers comment that their protein skimmer aids in nitrate removal. In reviews of popular skimmers online, aquarists comment that adding the skimmer resulted in a dramatic reduction of nitrates. Do protein skimmers really remove nitrate? It would seem like they could, considering all the thick, green, smelly waste that accumulates within a collection cup. Let’s take a look at protein skimmers and their ability to remove nitrates within a marine aquarium.



How do skimmers work? Reefing 101:diagram-protein-skimmerProtein skimmers are also known as foam fractionators and they remove organic compounds from water. Believe it or not, they are most popular in commercial water treatment facilities and public aquariums. Skimmers use the polarity of a particle to remove it, primarily pulling out the proteins and amino acids within food particles. Compounds such as fat are hydrophobic and compounds such as sugar, amino acid and salt are hydrophilic. Large organic compounds are both hydrophobic and hydrophilic, being referred to as amphiphilic. Skimmers work by creating an air water interface and the smaller the bubbles, the more waste that is removed (Hence why so many skimmers have plates and impellers designed to reduce bubble size).

Large amounts of bubbles create surface for organic molecules to accumulate on. As long as the bubble doesn’t burst, it becomes saturated with organic matter until it’s pushed into a collection cup. Within a skimmer a lot is going on, molecules with a strong bid to the air/water interface push molecules with a weak bond off, allowing them to be picked up by another bubble.

A common misconception among aquarists and skimmer manufacturers is that increasing dwell times is good. In fact, some skimmers use increased dwell time as a selling point. This is a misconception, it is not necessary to increase the time that air and aquarium water are in contact. Dwell time often does nothing to increase skimmer performance. Once a bubble is saturated with organic molecules, or bound with strong organic molecules, its usefulness at removing them is over. This process happens very quickly.

Skimmers are also used to gently harvest algae and phytoplankton for live culture, as they remove the minute organisms within water, keeping them alive.

Do they remove nitrate?Nitrate-ionThe answer is a definitive no! Protein skimmers do nothing to remove nitrate within the water. That thick, smelly gunk you empty from your collection cup is not riddled with nitrate. Skimmers remove waste before it has a chance to be broken down into nitrate. It does take some of the load off the biological filter and could lead to reduced nitrate over letting organic molecules be broken down biologically, but your skimmer isn’t pulling any nitrates from the water.

If there is something generating nitrate within your tank, perhaps an aerobic bacteria based filtration device, a protein skimmer can do nothing to correct that. Nitrate removal is perhaps the most difficult form of filtration to accomplish, especially if you aren’t using an export system such as macro-algae. Anaerobic bacteria which breaks nitrate down into harmless nitrogen gas prefers oxygen depleted water, such as a stagnant garden pond. In our reef aquariums we seek to create oxygen rich environments, and anaerobic bacteria is relegated to cracks and crevices within live rock or deep within the sand bed. Since skimmers raise the dissolved oxygen content of aquarium water, they actually work against harvesting anaerobic bacteria. If you look at nitrate reduction reactors, almost all have slow flow rates and are packed with media that creates a tight surface, so that water flowing through doesn’t generate oxygen.

Since protein skimmers don’t remove every form of organic matter, which can biologically be converted to nitrates, it simply cannot be considered a method of nitrate removal. Skimming certainly improves water quality by removing proteins, but doesn’t pinpoint nitrate and remove it.

Are skimmers even necessary?SM300-view-3Protein skimmer function is wildly misconceived over internet reef forums. Some aquarists consider them the be-all and end-all of aquarium filtration. While I consider a good, powerful skimmer a filtration system’s heartbeat, many different aspects need taken into consideration. Corals and fish rely on various amino acids. Amino acids are the building blocks of life and aid greatly in fish and coral health/growth. Protein skimmers remove them without prejudice. Also, skimmers remove a variety of helpful compounds from the water. Powerful skimmers have the ability to strip the water column bare of organic molecules that the animals within rely on.

It’s for this reason that their use needs to be carefully considered. Any aquarist relying on systems such as zeolite, will find protein skimmer use to be counterproductive, as the skimmer will remove the beneficial additives that make zeolite function. Running a protein skimmer 24/7 often isn’t having the effect aquarists are hoping for, simply because the skimmer is removing everything from the water.

Since protein skimmers aid in ph stabilization and water oxygenation, using them at certain times is highly beneficial. For example, I run my protein skimmer at night, when photosynthesis stops and oxygenation aids in diluting carbon. This prevents ph swings. During the day, when zeolite shaking and dosing takes place, the skimmer remains off.

A skimmerless approach:601px-Aquarium_Nitrogen_Cycle_svgAs I see more and more highly powerful skimmers entering the market, I watch as aquarists rush out to get one slightly more powerful than the last. Many of the popular features on skimmers do very little to increase efficiency or improve overall water quality in the aquarium. Skimmer use is important in marine aquaria, but takes constant adjustment and thought to perform correctly.

Nitrate removal is best accomplished with an export system such as macro-algae, or biologically using specialized reactors and media. Blindly skimming the water of all protein often causes aquarists more problems than it fixes. As we see methods such as Triton emerge, that use careful scientific analysis of elements within the water to increase aquarist’s success rate with captive reefs, it will be interesting to learn just how many beneficial elements skimming removes and if it’s possible to achieve harmony between removing unwanted proteins and maintaining crucial elements.

daca schimbi apa, nu ai multi pesti, nu hranesti abundent => nu ai neaparata nevoie de skimmer in opinia mea.

clar nu vei putea tine acropore, insa 80 % din corali vor fi ok.

Interesant de urmarit experimentul din link-ul urmator....imi cer scuze daca s-a mai postat si discutat:
https://youtu.be/4iSW_GPP9ac

adivb wrote:Interesant de urmarit experimentul din link-ul urmator....imi cer scuze daca s-a mai postat si discutat:
https://youtu.be/4iSW_GPP9ac

Experimentul e interesant, din pacate sunt prea obosit sa-l urmaresc cu atentia cuvenita (vocea tipului ma adoarme).

Eu cred ca acvariile din mijloc primesc mai multa lumina / caldura de la halide si acvariile vecine decat cele laterale.

Legat de subiectul propeiu zis, toti am ramas la un moment dat cu skimmerul in plop si ne-a fost lene sa-l scoatem, curatam sau reparam. Iar acvariul n-a suferit in niciun fel. Sigur ca se poate, dar trebuie sa gasesti alternative in filtrare: fie schimburi dese mai mari, fie macroalge. Varianta cu biopallete cade, intrucat skimmerul indeparteaza bacteriile libere in surplus, dupa ce s-au umflat cu nutrienti din apa.

As mai zice, dar adorm cu telefonul in mana ...

Caz concret la mine ...
Dupa 5 ani in care skimmer-ul era miezul filtrarii, a trecut luna de cand l-am tras pe dreapta.
Facea un zgomot ciudat si urma sa-l curat .
Ce am observat, coralii parca sunt si mai bine, mai colorati, mai extinsi. Soft-iesii si LPS-ii par mult mai bucurosi.
Pesti am decat 14, nici unul insa de talie mare, cam mult totusi pentru 300l total volum, cu 190l brut in display.
Nu prea am acropore, dar am si una noua care nu da semne de discomfort.
In schimb, merg pe DSB in refugium-ul cu macroalge, reactor la picatura si inca 3 reactoare bio wet/dry din compact kit-ul Tunze 19.
Soseta de filtrare o spal la 2-4 zile, e mult mai plina de toate cele dar si puellaris baga ca MIG-ul...
Acum ce sa zic ... vine caldura, nu pot monta chiller, ma chinui cu ventilatoare, asa ca o pompa in minus ajuta ...

Al meu sta pe post de back-up, de un an,...
Adevarul e ca nici pesti nu prea am,,doar vre-o 6 asa de miscare,,

adivb wrote:Interesant de urmarit experimentul din link-ul urmator....imi cer scuze daca s-a mai postat si discutat:
https://youtu.be/4iSW_GPP9ac

Totusi, din cate pot intelege din postura mea de incepator fara acvariu marin, exista o diferenta intre acvariile din mijloc, atat in cresterea coralilor cat si a tang-ului.
Schimb de apa 10% saptamanal.

Am reusit sa-l ascult pana la final, pe comentator

Imi pare rau daca e plictisitor topicul...nu ma pricep sa-l "colorez"

adivb wrote:

adivb wrote:

Imi pare rau daca e plictisitor topicul...nu ma pricep sa-l "colorez"

vorbeste cu domn Pavelescu sau cu domnu doctor

Topicul e ok, ma refeream la tipul din video cu experimentul. Are o voce cu timbru jos, monotona, care te adoarme, mai ales cand esti cronic deprivat de somn.

Topicul poti sa-l colorezi cu poze decente cu femei dezbracate (varianta validata) sau in alt mod (de exemplu declari ca piatra uscata de vine vie cu dozare de bacterii nitrificatoare si atragI pe cineva foarte pasionat de piatra vie intr-o polemica). A doua varianta mi se pare insa vulgara si indecenta.

Asteptam pozele

Las pe altii mai cu experienta sa coloreze
Poze, nu am..nici cu marine ..peste vreun an poate. Deocamdata citesc.
Nu stiu sa creez polemici , dar din ce citesc si observ in experimentul de mai sus, pe mine ma convins acvariu nr 3 de la stanga la dreapta. O sa vad cand va veni timpul si bugetul pt asa ceva.

Pana atunci sper la cat mai multe discutii pe forum, asa mai invatam si noi ceva. noi " cititorii"...
Deci: spor la taste

Desi pt subiectul de mai jos ar trebui sa creez al topic, nu am rabdare sa o fac...poate creez o polemica ..sau in cel mai bun caz o avertizare.

Ati folosit careva led-uri incluse intr-un "bec" soclu e26/27? Stiti ceva despre cele de mai jos? Ref pret vs calitate..
http://coralcompulsion.com/led/PAR-BULBS

pentru cine e interesat, un experiment cu nano bubbles.
pe la minutul 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncg0io-nAfg

Iti dau un skimmer sa te folosesti de el pana iti vin alte idei?

Merci maestre..dar inca nu l-am desfacut din cutie pe cel de acasa

https://youtu.be/3_MfOHz_kxw
Din nou interesant de urmarit de la minutul 3 pana pe la 7

adivb wrote:pentru cine e interesat, un experiment cu nano bubbles.
pe la minutul 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncg0io-nAfg

cateva concluzii urmare a experimentului nano bubbles:
https://reefbuilders.com/2016/07/09/nano-bubbles-in-the-reef-aquarium/

PS: nu sunt expert in marine doar fac share la ce mai gasesc si mi se pare interesant. poate ajuta la ceva ...sau poate nu

"It’s for this reason that their use needs to be carefully considered. Any aquarist relying on systems such as zeolite, will find protein skimmer use to be counterproductive, as the skimmer will remove the beneficial additives that make zeolite function. Running a protein skimmer 24/7 often isn’t having the effect aquarists are hoping for, simply because the skimmer is removing everything from the water."

... asta e din prima postare. Si intrebarea este cum de cel mai de succes sistem bazat pe zeoliti, Zeovit, foloseste
obligatoriu un skimmer? E adevarat ca nu este un skimmer de tip mesh/neddle, este un skimmer cu injectoare
de tip Venturi, asemanatoare cu injectoarele Beckett.

Daca veti cauta pe aici prin forum am dat o gramada de informatii despre skimmere si diferitele tipuri de skimmere.

Concluzia mea e una singura: nu exista supra skimmare, dar exista multe tipuri de skimmere care au performante diferite
si care intr-o mica sau mai mare masura extrag diferite elemente din apa...

Salut cu bucurie revenirea ta pe aces forum, Dragos! . Mi-au lipsit sfaturile si experienta ta, chiar daca ne-am intersectat rareori in subiecte ce tin de acvaristica marina. Asadar, binea-i venit din nou printre noi!

Mersi Dan

Eu nu am avut , si nu am , acvariu marin mai mare de 60l . Asa ca nu ma pot pronunta in legatura cu eficienta skimerului , pt ca nu am folosit . Dar pot spune cu certitudine , ca totul depinde de volumul acvariului , incarcarea biologica si sistemele de filtrare !
Asa cum folosirea canistrei la marine este o polemica , la fel se contureaza si folosirea skimerului !
Ce pot sa fac la momentul acesta , este sa-l contrazic pe colegul elven care sustine " clar nu vei putea tine acropore " , prin exemplificare :



Doar daca acest coral nu este acropora !!!!
Acvariul a fost un nano de 35 l , skimmerless si o canistra de 700l/h
Acum merg in aceeasi configuratie , dar la un volum de 60l .
A ! Intretinerea o faceam doar prin schimb de apa 5l la doua saptamani sau 3 , fara aditii sau alte complicatii !!!